Hi all,
I discovered Pioneer a few weeks ago, and I start to enjoy it. :-)
I have some questions about how hyperspace works in Pioneer. From what I saw, a ship can activate the hyperdrive as soon as he takes off, but will arrive somewhere in the exterior of the system.
Is this a desired behaviour ? What is the rationale behind hyperspace ? Is some kind of hyperlimit (defined by the star) preventing to enter hyperspace (and thus necessiting to travel a little bit away towards the outer system) could be implemented ?
I'm not really good with C++ but could you tell me where I should look in the source code if I would like to play with hyperspace ?
Many thanks,
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Darckense
Hyperspace
Re: Hyperspace
Well, the rationale would be that when you go really really fast, it is easy to tell precisely where is your starting point, much less where you'll end up — anybody who's flown manually in maximal time accel can attest to that :-)
Re: Hyperspace
I got your point, but I suppose that you don't manually pilot with your hyperdrive and instead use some kind of computer assistance. :-) More likely, you will compute in advance your "jump", and let the computer drive you to your destination. The planets position don't significally change during a few days or weeks, so I think it should be easy enought to compute a hyperspace course in advance... :-)
By rationale, I wanted to ask what factors limits hyperspace travel, etc... For example, if gravity is hampering with hyperdrive, it should have some limit around the stars and planets where it is not possible to enter hyperspace. There is the question to where do we put the threshold, for exemple a big "hyperlimit" of 10 AU around the sun, or a much smaller one, which will allow to enter hyperspace from low orbit around the planets.
Anyways, I looked a little bit in the code, and I guess that I could do what I want within Ship.cpp (Ship::HyperjumpStatus) if I add a gravity based condition to HYPERJUMP_SAFETY_LOCKOUT. I still have to figure out how the coordinate system works to calculate the distance between the ship, the star and the lanets, though. ;-)
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Darckense
By rationale, I wanted to ask what factors limits hyperspace travel, etc... For example, if gravity is hampering with hyperdrive, it should have some limit around the stars and planets where it is not possible to enter hyperspace. There is the question to where do we put the threshold, for exemple a big "hyperlimit" of 10 AU around the sun, or a much smaller one, which will allow to enter hyperspace from low orbit around the planets.
Anyways, I looked a little bit in the code, and I guess that I could do what I want within Ship.cpp (Ship::HyperjumpStatus) if I add a gravity based condition to HYPERJUMP_SAFETY_LOCKOUT. I still have to figure out how the coordinate system works to calculate the distance between the ship, the star and the lanets, though. ;-)
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Darckense
Re: Hyperspace
I'm not the best person to comment on this because I never got past 'Hello World' in C++, but fwiw.
There was some discussion about this about a year ago. A problem was discovered when Sagittarius A was added to the game. There was a fixed system entry point distance that put you inside the event horizon. The entry point was changed to be related to the mass of your hyperspace target. Obviously I can't tell you where to look in the code, but I'm sure someone who can will post shortly.
There was some discussion about this about a year ago. A problem was discovered when Sagittarius A was added to the game. There was a fixed system entry point distance that put you inside the event horizon. The entry point was changed to be related to the mass of your hyperspace target. Obviously I can't tell you where to look in the code, but I'm sure someone who can will post shortly.
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NeuralKernel
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:42 am
Re: Hyperspace
I would like to see Hyperdrive use be much more involved than it currently is, not just a matter of activating it as soon as the landing gear leaves the pad and then crossing a dozen light years.
What kind of prerequisites make sense befoer you can "Jump"?
Leaving the atnmosphere?
Leaving the Gravity Well?
What about something else? What if the Hyperdrive only worked CLOSE to a star and then spat you out right beside the destination star (system barycenter, anyways...) at local escape velocity?
Or Jump Points... natural or artificial... general use or destination specific...
The engine isn't built for continuous interstellar use, unless I'm mistaken, so a Warp Drive seems to be out of the question...
Just stirring the pot, really :) I prefer interplanetary flight, myself but I would like to see more details figured out about FTL in Pioneer...
What kind of prerequisites make sense befoer you can "Jump"?
Leaving the atnmosphere?
Leaving the Gravity Well?
What about something else? What if the Hyperdrive only worked CLOSE to a star and then spat you out right beside the destination star (system barycenter, anyways...) at local escape velocity?
Or Jump Points... natural or artificial... general use or destination specific...
The engine isn't built for continuous interstellar use, unless I'm mistaken, so a Warp Drive seems to be out of the question...
Just stirring the pot, really :) I prefer interplanetary flight, myself but I would like to see more details figured out about FTL in Pioneer...
Re: Hyperspace
How about energy (hydrogen) costs are larger deep in the gravity well? So you could theoretically jump form the surface of the planet, but it would need a ton of hydrogen for every kilogram of the ship (plus the stored fuel - yay for rocket equation), but as you get further from a gravity well, then the energy cost goes down, and eventually reaches a manageable level (but never reaches zero). And you could choose to spend more hydrogen and jump closer form a planet (in an emergency for example), or get further from it, and then jump for a lower amount of hydrogen. Gravity well could even influence travel time too ("the deeper the mud, the more time you need to dig out of it'").
L-points could work as a small area where the costs are lower (equlibrium), but you might need a more advanced hyperdrive, and/or navigation computer to use those. It's kinda like I-war, but you are not limited to Lagrangian points. It would be a good opportunity to show traffic to the player, and provide points of interest to combat around.
There could be a chance for every jump to arrive on a random L point, and you could increase the chance with good equipment. You might be able to target L-point destiantions above a certain tier of hyperdrive/nav computer, but there should be only a chance to actually reach it instead of droping out at the edge of the system (or another L-point). Hyperdrive/nav computer quality could just increase the chance, but 100% certianity never could be reached. And it should be harder to aim for them with increasing distance/mass/gravity well.
Maybe the arrival distance from the star could be explained (technoblabled :D) as the wormhole (or whats that) "moves/falls" towards the star, and it passes the star, and settles at a certain distance, kind of like when you barely miss the hole playing golf. It wobbles a bit on the edge and then rolls out and stops. And the further the system from where you jump, the greater the rollout distance will be, so this way the player may first jump to an adjacent system, and then jumps to the destination to arrive closer to the star to save time and propellant on interplanetary travel.
And it would make sense, if the NAV computer would need quite a bit of time to calculate the jump, so the player might have to set the destination in time, so he doesn't need to wait for hours for example. Or even days, and the starport might provide computer farms to accelerate calculation for a price. And calculation time might increase too the further the destination is.
I think hyperdrive should be used for interstellar travel only. Like there's a minimum distance you must jump to, or something.
L-points could work as a small area where the costs are lower (equlibrium), but you might need a more advanced hyperdrive, and/or navigation computer to use those. It's kinda like I-war, but you are not limited to Lagrangian points. It would be a good opportunity to show traffic to the player, and provide points of interest to combat around.
There could be a chance for every jump to arrive on a random L point, and you could increase the chance with good equipment. You might be able to target L-point destiantions above a certain tier of hyperdrive/nav computer, but there should be only a chance to actually reach it instead of droping out at the edge of the system (or another L-point). Hyperdrive/nav computer quality could just increase the chance, but 100% certianity never could be reached. And it should be harder to aim for them with increasing distance/mass/gravity well.
Maybe the arrival distance from the star could be explained (technoblabled :D) as the wormhole (or whats that) "moves/falls" towards the star, and it passes the star, and settles at a certain distance, kind of like when you barely miss the hole playing golf. It wobbles a bit on the edge and then rolls out and stops. And the further the system from where you jump, the greater the rollout distance will be, so this way the player may first jump to an adjacent system, and then jumps to the destination to arrive closer to the star to save time and propellant on interplanetary travel.
And it would make sense, if the NAV computer would need quite a bit of time to calculate the jump, so the player might have to set the destination in time, so he doesn't need to wait for hours for example. Or even days, and the starport might provide computer farms to accelerate calculation for a price. And calculation time might increase too the further the destination is.
I think hyperdrive should be used for interstellar travel only. Like there's a minimum distance you must jump to, or something.
Re: Hyperspace
As I understood, right now, the hyperdrive class is related to the maximum jump distance, and the fuel consumption (rougthly, the better the hyperdrive class, the lower is the fuel cost).
It would be nice if with an high hyerdrive class, one could hyperspace from "deeper" into the gravity well.
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Darckense
It would be nice if with an high hyerdrive class, one could hyperspace from "deeper" into the gravity well.
--
Darckense
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FluffyFreak
- Posts: 1343
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Re: Hyperspace
Maybe, but in system travel can be a drag, how about hopping from Lagrange to Lagrange point when in-system?nozmajner wrote:I think hyperdrive should be used for interstellar travel only. Like there's a minimum distance you must jump to, or something.
Re: Hyperspace
It's depend how we want hyperspace to work. If we allow hyperspace jumps at Lagrange points, in effects, this will allow intra-system jumps to all bodies in the system. This will short-circuit the whole intra-system travel, which is a big part of the game...FluffyFreak wrote:Maybe, but in system travel can be a drag, how about hopping from Lagrange to Lagrange point when in-system?
IMHO, I would prefer an hyper-limit around the star, which can be quite big. On the other hand, we could allow intra-system jump to Lagrange point in the outer sytem, outside the star gravity well. But to be coherent with inter system hyperspace jump, if we do that, maybe we should also be able to select a destination L point...
What do you think of it ?
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Darckense
Re: Hyperspace
If there's a limit, which L-points could be used (over a certain body-parent body mass for example, like Earth-Sun would work, Moon-Earth doesn't) then we would still have long distance travel. Earth-Sun L4, L5 are 60 degrees after and before Earth on it's orbit, and according to a wikipedia explanatory images, they span on a larger area, so they might be suitable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lagrange_points2.svg
L3 is across Earth, so it's not that useful, but could provide military/piracy/muggling advantages.
The others could provide seasonal jump opportunities to closer targets (if the target is at the closest on it's orbit, like Mars-Earth alignment), but since they are, let's say smaller, the fuel cost could not worth it in most cases.
The main argument for L-point travel is the choke point nature that provides oportunity for the player to meet other ships more frequently. Also it could provide means for proper orbital navigation maneuvers with more immediet results for the player. And could open a few can of worms, like piracy/patrol problems. The AI needs to handle those, for example. Or is it possible to place a station near to it? If yes, how close, and how much it alters the jump? How large these stations can be? If large, then they might be interesting enough for the players to skip planets altogether, so there goes long travel. Also travel would be more forgiving regarding planning for fuel, if you could replenish quickly (wich might be desirable). If the station is small, then it might only provide very basic and limited service for a large price, so it mit be used only in need.
If there's no station, how the authorities supervise/patrol it? This could be different for different L-points/systems to provide more diversity.
And another obvious and important question: would this stray the game too much towards I-war gameplay? I like how that game plays, but would it benefit Pioneer if it plays somewhat like it? How much would it alter the general mood of vastness of Pioneer? Which is one of it's mayor point and charm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lagrange_points2.svg
L3 is across Earth, so it's not that useful, but could provide military/piracy/muggling advantages.
The others could provide seasonal jump opportunities to closer targets (if the target is at the closest on it's orbit, like Mars-Earth alignment), but since they are, let's say smaller, the fuel cost could not worth it in most cases.
The main argument for L-point travel is the choke point nature that provides oportunity for the player to meet other ships more frequently. Also it could provide means for proper orbital navigation maneuvers with more immediet results for the player. And could open a few can of worms, like piracy/patrol problems. The AI needs to handle those, for example. Or is it possible to place a station near to it? If yes, how close, and how much it alters the jump? How large these stations can be? If large, then they might be interesting enough for the players to skip planets altogether, so there goes long travel. Also travel would be more forgiving regarding planning for fuel, if you could replenish quickly (wich might be desirable). If the station is small, then it might only provide very basic and limited service for a large price, so it mit be used only in need.
If there's no station, how the authorities supervise/patrol it? This could be different for different L-points/systems to provide more diversity.
And another obvious and important question: would this stray the game too much towards I-war gameplay? I like how that game plays, but would it benefit Pioneer if it plays somewhat like it? How much would it alter the general mood of vastness of Pioneer? Which is one of it's mayor point and charm.