nozmajner wrote:I think using the roman empire as a basis would be good, but it seems to be a common ground for fictional empires already. Maybe we could mix it with the old Chinese empire and some communist dictatures.
Oh, the uniforms could have tons of medals, and giant hats, like Russian and Chinese military ;-). Or just look a bit sinister in some way.
Just to "zoom out" a bit, the way I imagine it is that one would want factions with the following qualities (or similar):
Faction A.
Democratic, freedom, not particularly aggressive. I'm thinking UN/Starfleet in Star Trek, or Federation in FFE. From what I understand it CID would be the closest to this. Perhaps too naive of me to have "super good guys" like Starfleet?
Faction B.
Dictatorship, slavery legal, militaristic/nationalistic, aggressive, service to the emperor is key. Can be modeled on Rome, China, WW2 Japan, or third Reich (say what you will, but those Hugo Boss designed Nazi uniforms looked pretty rad), for instance, and maybe similar to the Emnpire in FFE. So this isn't Haber exactly, I guess, but maybe our current "Red" faction (which is just a place holder name, I guess) which has a lot of slavery.
Faction C
Some kind of lose union/alliance of independent systems. Maybe just coordinated military alliance to better defend themselves from the expansionistic factions.
So, SolFed would be somewhere between Faction A&B, and Haber would be similar to Faction B.
Well, that was what was in my head. I think we all imagine the factions a bit different.
Since Evarchart was interested in factions, here is an IRC discussion from January, which might be of interest to him, especially the
link nozmajner posted there.
Code: Select all
[Thu Jan 29 2014]
<impaktor> About factions: I don't think Elite/Frontier have monopoly or the
rights to having some Empire modelled after the Roman empire. This
is something I'd like to see. Federation puts its citizens and
their freedom first, while the empire puts the awesomeness of their
empire first. [10:36]
<nozmajner> Federation is not that democratic actually
<nozmajner> at least based on the wiki
<impaktor> In pioneer? Or elite? Or star trek?
<nozmajner> in Pioneer
<impaktor> Hm, so Earth is a shit hole, and freedom seekers leave the Fed to
establish some colony. [10:37]
<impaktor> or faction.
<nozmajner> something like that
<nozmajner> but I have to reread the story, and it needs some organization
too, it's not a too good read right now [10:38]
<nozmajner> "Cloak and Dagger: Solar Federation doesn't officially worry about
all the independents out there. Unofficially, it wants to rule
everyone."
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channel #pioneer [10:40]
<impaktor> I guess it's the wiki outline isn't written in stone, and can be
changed, if we decide the direction is wrong? [10:42]
<nozmajner> I think so
<nozmajner> I like the more proud and pretentious solfed idea [10:43]
<nozmajner> and CIW as a paranoid freedom proponent [10:44]
<robn> yeah, the stuff on the wiki is not settled [10:51]
<robn> its a good start, but its all up for grabs
<nozmajner> Maybe it would be a good idea to cut it back to the basics there,
nad build up a more orgaized article on top of that using the
current article [10:52]
<robn> works for me
<impaktor> What will be the definition of a faction? Should it span several
systems? Have military (missions)? [10:53]
<impaktor> that might be a starting point, since it's not clear to me at
least. [10:54]
<robn> I think not necessarily several systems (though single-system would
probably be a special case), and a proper military
<robn> political influence and the strength to back it up
<robn> though I'd expect to see corporations etc with private security, but
less politically inclined I guess [10:55]
<robn> I don't know exactly
<impaktor> So will there be independent systems belonging to no faction at
all, or will they belong to _one_ "independent faction"?
<nozmajner> There could be sub-factions, related to the main faction, with a
level of independency
<impaktor> Sounds like an extra level of complexity. [10:56]
<robn> independent will be word for "no allegiance". ie the default
<impaktor> How would one notice these sub factions?
<robn> something like CIS is a broader political thing [10:57]
<nozmajner> CIS military could be a subfaction
<robn> a sub faction might be more like a treaty? independent, but the feds
will defend them if necessary
<nozmajner> something like that [10:58]
<nozmajner> the ship manufacturers could be subfaction too
<robn> also might be a military system. like a secret weapons development
planet
<impaktor> Will this be noticeable for the player?
<robn> so might not have the normal faction trade rules, but will call in the
faction military if you pick a fight
<nozmajner> is the current faction system noticable? Apart from the colors on
the map [10:59]
<robn> nozmajner: ship manufacturers might be specific to a faction then?
<robn> I imagined that some might be independent, operate everywhere
<robn> I suppose that's an option too
<robn> nozmajner: no. I think its exposed to the lua environment somewhere,
but nothing uses it
<robn> its a mess. I do not like its implementation at all.
<impaktor> (Different factions have different newspapers in my news event)
[11:00]
<nozmajner> an idea about factions, subfactions: [11:42]
<nozmajner>
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s12/sh/1c5243d9-576c-4734-b46a-6919ef84b191/fa032d0dbc8775262d739def174e2e2d
<jameson> [ Factions ]
<impaktor> I might be daft, but I don't get how a faction's
police/trade/military are sub factions? Feels like they are just
the factions police/military/etc. [11:45]
<nozmajner> yes, but they do different things
<nozmajner> Military =/= government
<nozmajner> and there's quite much rivalry among us Navy and Air Force as I
heard [11:46]
<impaktor> I imagined a sub faction to have it's own worlds etc? Kind of like
southern states of US could be a sub faction of USA.
<robn> it makes sense to me.
<nozmajner> could have, but not necesseraly
<impaktor> I still fail to see the point.
<nozmajner> a military won't have it's own systems or planets, but could have
bases on several system [11:47]
<nozmajner> same for a trade company or a manufacturer
<robn> nozmajner: actually a military could have its own systems/planets
<nozmajner> but the systems that are SolFed for example, but not closely
related would have their own systems, planets and bases, with some
SolFed military bases for example [11:48]
<robn> though I'm inclined to thing that a system has an overall allegiance
(ie solfed/ciw/haber/none), and then each base has an associated
faction [11:49]
<nozmajner> robn: I would imagine that would be quite rare
<impaktor> OK so NATO has forces on Iceland for instance. Thus Icleand is a
sub faction
<robn> which isn't necessarily the overall system allegiance. could have a
haber spy base in a solfed system
<nozmajner> Iceland is a subfaction which has NATO (another subfaction)
presence on it's territory
<robn> impaktor: Iceland is a planet. [11:50]
<robn> nozmajner: yes, quite rare.
<impaktor> For placing military missions, it might be useful to have some
parameter saying how strong the military presence is on that star
port, like in Frontier, both Fed and Empire had some very strong
connectivity between two worlds, making it easier to gain rank by
delivering secret documents. or? [11:52]
<nozmajner> for example [11:53]
<impaktor> Is a faction just the sum of its sub factions?
<nozmajner> each subfaction could have a parameter for it's presence in the
system
<nozmajner> not just a sum, but an umbrella organization [11:54]
<nozmajner> but I indended this as a seed of tought :) [11:55]
<robn> nozmajner: this makes complete sense to me, fwiw :)
<impaktor> Well, if robn sees some way of coding this, who am I to object.
[11:56]
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<robn> its just a list of factions grouped by a broader allegiance. or if you
want to have sub-sub-factions, its a tree. [11:57]
<robn> neither a big deal.
<impaktor> I just thought it seems over complicated. Seeing how we hardly
notice factions now, how are we going to notice something which is
even finer grained.
<robn> impaktor: you don't notice factions now because they don't exist except
for colours on the map
<robn> they don't do anything at all.
<impaktor> yet
<impaktor> :)
<robn> exactly. and that's why you don't notice them [11:58]
<robn> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
<nozmajner> and subfactions could compete with each other, like trade firms
<impaktor> Should independent factions only have on world or one system? Some
faction having only two systems would not be independent? [11:59]
<nozmajner> so if you are part of say Joe's traders, then Sara's haulers won't
shoot you, but if they let you land, then their prices would be
quite worse then on another station [12:00]
<nozmajner> I think independent should mean single systems. If two systems
enter into a closer relationship, then it's a faction already
[12:01]
<impaktor> ok
<impaktor> I was thinking that there should be a limited number of "main"
factions, i.e. the big players, where you can do a military career,
so a two system faction would not have a military. [12:03]
<nozmajner> agree
<impaktor> ... but still be a faction I guess, with some nice logo, name,
police force, etc.
<robn> maybe. though their police might be a private security firm [12:04]
<nozmajner> logo is a bit problematic, but I want to think about ways to
generate those
<robn> independents can have that too. random independent government is still
going to have a name
<robn> nozmajner: we can assemble random logos from parts
<impaktor> But all factions should be made by hand, I guess?
<nozmajner> robn: yeah, I was thinking about something lie the facegen [12:05]
<robn> impaktor: maybe. we could generate a few minor ones
<nozmajner> but maybe with a tree-like structure, so it less likely to become
a mess: a base shape - selection of elements on that base shape,
colors
<robn> and maybe one day, make them at game time based on events
<nozmajner> that would be awsome :D [12:06]
<robn> nozmajner: sure, if the components were designed with a particular set
of selection rules in mind, we can implement that
<nozmajner> so much to work on, right? :D [12:07]
<nozmajner> I'll try to come up with a logo for CIW now, so at least we have
one for all three bigger factions from the wiki
<robn> always :)
<Pioneer> [pioneer] robn pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/kBgBRA
[12:09]
<Pioneer> pioneer/master 4d63174 Szlrd: New starting ships
<Pioneer> pioneer/master 3aac443 Robert Norris: Merge remote-tracking branch
'nozmajner/start_ships'
<nozmajner> I think the one I showed a few weeks ago could be SolFed logo
[12:11]
<nozmajner>
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/gytOtht81CGCKqJxW5UQx_45klGnCDZIbl-Jw_wg_40?feat=directlink
<jameson> [ Picasa Web Albums - Blint Szilrd ]
<nozmajner> Haber already has one as the manufacturer logo [12:12]
<robn> I do like that one
<robn> I want the red to be yellow, because I want it to be the sun, and the
blue the earth. and then the white dots are the other planets in the
federation
<robn> but I don't know what you have in mind :) [12:13]
<nozmajner> I made it red to indicate Mars
<nozmajner> blue is earth
<robn> ahh yeah that works too
<robn> and the sizes are better
<nozmajner> and the background brownis is supposed to be an orange sun
<robn> yeah I see it now :) [12:14]
<nozmajner> I just didn't wanted tube orange
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#pioneer [12:36]
<Pioneer> [pioneer] robn closed pull request #2695: Fix issue 2656
(master...tag_landing_issue_2656) http://git.io/322u3Q
<nozmajner> robn: so it's time for me to add tag_landings? :) [12:37]
<robn> heh yep :)
<robn> add tag_landing to the Model_system topic on the wiki [12:40]
<nozmajner> ok
<robn> there's no mention of shield meshes in there, we should add that
<nozmajner> I have to check, how you add that to the model
<nozmajner> ok, I see now [12:41]
<robn> it has a special node name iirc
<nozmajner> oh, so you already added tag_landing [12:42]
<robn> oh crap
<robn> I typo'd
<robn> added*
<nozmajner> you want to do shields too?
<robn> yeah ok [12:43]
* robn figures out the details
<robn> >---static const std::string s_shieldGroupName("Shields"); [12:44]
<robn> >---static const std::string s_matrixTransformName("_accMtx4");
<robn> ugh
<robn> Group - Shields [12:45]
<robn> MatrixTransform - 0_accMtx4
<robn> StaticGeometry - sgMesh0
<nozmajner> This as a CIW logo: [12:52]
<nozmajner>
https://picasaweb.google.com/114396283540873280380/Pioneer?authkey=Gv1sRgCOPo58agr7ujkgE#5974283651883416546
<jameson> [ Picasa Web Albums - Blint Szilrd - Pioneer ]
<nozmajner> ?
<impaktor> infinite scroll. [12:56]
<nozmajner> ?
<robn> had some trouble with the link. this thing with the red/brown/orange
triangles and the dark blue and the stars? [12:57]
<nozmajner> yes
<nozmajner> sorry, I didn't realized it's a bad link
<nozmajner>
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YdWXjak44K57v-LAX3ixvf45klGnCDZIbl-Jw_wg_40?feat=directlink
<jameson> [ Picasa Web Albums - Blint Szilrd ]
<nozmajner> it worked while I was logged in [12:58]
<robn> yeah that's a better link
<robn> heh
<impaktor> A cross just like the south/confederacy in US civil war. [12:59]
<robn> not a fan, I think. there's nothing in it that really draws my
attention
<robn> its not offensive. its just not giving me anything
<robn> sorry
<robn> that's not very constructive [13:00]
<nozmajner> it is
<nozmajner> it's a bit of struggle to come up with something
<impaktor> What was the description for the CID again? Peace lovers?
<impaktor> *CIW
<nozmajner> the description on the wiki has torches and stuff, but I'm affraid
that will be overdetailed
<impaktor> so would olive branch? [13:01]
<robn> open hand, closed hand. we can be friends but if you try anything I'll
punch you [13:02]
<robn> sleep time, night guys :)
<nozmajner> night
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<impaktor> Fist with two thumbs. [13:06]
<impaktor> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Gonzo.svg
<impaktor> been done of course. [13:07]
<nozmajner> fist with an olive brach? [13:09]
<impaktor> sword with olive branch? [13:10]
<impaktor> I have now clue.
<impaktor> *no clue [13:11]
<nozmajner> I'll try that hand and fist first, and olive branch too [13:12]