Since cryo sleep doesn't actually exist I think it's pretty difficult to make assumptions about how one would feel awakening from such sleep (especially in 3200) - or how fast a person being revived would be able to become cognitively functional.
In the film "The Abyss" is a real life example of how to equalize the pressure throughout the body using a liquid that replaces conventional oxygen. There are also presently some interesting developments in cryo that involve freezing organs into a solid form that does not cause damage to cell structures. In such cases one could imagine G tolerance would be greatly improved. By the year 3200 these methods will likely be archaic by comparison.
Auto pilots wouldn't have to do any more flying than they do now since their function could always be interrupted by the player. The main reason to hand over the boost phase to an autopilot is so that the pilot and crew can credibly survive the G forces during high acceleration phases while/if they are incapacitated.
I see nothing wrong with having the option of 'in system hyperspace' but I wouldn't want it if it ment sacrificing the existing system. I think both modes of travel should be supported if possible. Freelancer had hyperspace lanes that allowed you to travel from one planet to another simply by entering and exiting gateways.
I view the Hyperspace hand wavium as a separate wacky startreky explanation to getting around the G force conundrum that simply needs to be in place to deal with the massive stellar distances in Pioneer. In system travel should try to be more conventional, IMO. (although, as I said, I am not adverse to using in system Hyperspace - I think it may take some enjoyment and realism out of the experience of in system travel.)
G-force Meter
Re: G-force Meter
That's why I'm thinking we shouldn't invent cryo into the game in the first place. Future or not, I still don't think these kind of things should work in a clap of a hand fiction-wise. The easier it gets, the more future people will abuse it.
Freezing somebody into a solid form would decrease G tolerance I think, since it reduces flexibility.
I'm not suggesting that insys hyperspace should be the only way traveling around, especially not in an unlimited jump everywhere manner. I also really like navigating around systems too. The main reason I mentioned it is that it would allow for showing more traffic around the system if there are some common routes.
Freezing somebody into a solid form would decrease G tolerance I think, since it reduces flexibility.
I'm not suggesting that insys hyperspace should be the only way traveling around, especially not in an unlimited jump everywhere manner. I also really like navigating around systems too. The main reason I mentioned it is that it would allow for showing more traffic around the system if there are some common routes.
Re: G-force Meter
I think this subject is being overthought. If Pioneer becomes a totally realistic simulator it will take the fun out of it for many, if not most people. Realistic G forces would also require a redesign of all the ships into tailsitters. Up would be the opposite direction of the thrusters. We could simply ignore the issue as we do with the massive particle beam emitted by the engines and state in the backstory that there's a handwavium Star Trekkie inertial damper-like device that will modify the G forces to be 1G in the direction desired. It wouldn't be artifical gravity because it could only function while the ship is accelerating.
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baobobafet
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Re: G-force Meter
Always great to get discourse on such a subject, even if simply an intellectual exercise :)
Apologies in advance for WOT
It's always tough to make a call on what tech will or won't work at some abstract time in the future, all that can be done is try to make some educated guesses.
In terms of the latest cryo methods, to stop the bursting of cells required that the medium remain flexible and tough while still maintaining a matrix of structure, so who knows what can (or will) be possible in future.
Perhaps thawing crew to some reasonable cognitive ability will take as long as 3 minute popcorn? ;)
I think your solution to do a bit of handwavium on this issue using some G force deflector tech may nullify the problem well enough to satisfy the less hardcore audience.
But it begs a few questions.
Does this take the lid off acceleration limits in that anything goes?
Also what will be the credible gravity devising means for non rotating spacestations?
Should the gravity plating concept of trekdom be more fully adopted? (as in zero acceleration required to create gravity of one G)
...And by that extension, are wheel spacestations relegated to the bin of low techdom or will they simply represent a low cost more energy efficient means of producing habitable G's?
Insofar as converting all ships to tail sitters, I think that is probably a bit of overkill since ships should have different roles and capabilities.
However, having said that, I would definitely like to see more tail sitters as they do seem more apropos for high G worlds and ultra heavy cargo lifts.
Is it the journey, or the destination?
The question will always be: What makes a game enjoyable or challenging for the majority, while still balancing accessibility for new and less experienced players.
Sometimes it may hang on the ability of a game to represent an environment realistically enough to suspend disbelief (what intrigued me initially about Elite & Frontier's (AKA 2001) rotating wheel stations) and a more realistic depiction of gravity bodies, zero g environment and inertia in a game framework.
That was easily enough hook for me to take the plunge into the game's complexities, others may have different reasons.
Presently a lot of the manual piloting tasks are now easily enough done by autopilots (and now hired crew) while still allowing the hardcore audience complete freedom to experience the thrill (and occasional terror) of manual piloting modes.
I would also prefer (as a game difficulty setting) the flexibility for more manual docking latitude inside the spacestations rather than be grabbed by some tractor beam prior to crossing the threshold and automatically being plopped into a docking bay.(but that's just me)
Since lately their seems to be an emphasis on trek terminology ;)
Best of Both Worlds?
In a similar way I think a well though out solution to the G force conundrum, might allow both ideas to co-exist in game.
Having all civ tech levels have access to such 'G force deflector' technology on board ships could also be a credibility stretch.
I can also see how some might relish the prospect of having to deliver a 'carton of eggs' type cargo, labeled 'Handle with G Care' to a destination where time is of less importance than a safe transport and delivery that would result in premium profits.
(such missions could be made unavailable or less profitable for those with 'G force deflector' tech on their ships.)
Sometimes a problem and it's solution may add unanticipated richness to a gameverse.
Adding or removing such 'G force deflector' tech could lay in the domain of a shipyard upgrade/downgrade. (by default installed on all starter ships)
The ability for a civ to have this tech or not, open's up the opportunities for more contrasting tech levels or pre- warp civilizations with limited space travel capability.
If a ship is not equipped with a G force deflector, the player would then have to monitor acceleration factors to keep the ship acceleration at tolerable levels and durations for any passengers, crew & cargo to survive. This would require a G force readout on the HUD and a g rating limit for any crew/cargo as well as related G suit tech upgrades.
Since all players with the G force deflector installed would be able to carry all cargo without concerns for acceleration on crew or passenger/cargo safety, those players would not see any change from present game play.
Such devices might come in two flavors, 'Advanced' impervious to damage & 'Basic' may fail if damaged. When damaged, any existing acceleration ends, the G force meter pops up and the player would have to respond to the emergency, monitoring G's accordingly.
As a shipyard upgrade/downgrade, the door could be left open for a more advanced/challenging mode of potential realism and gameplay.
On the issue of common routes that ships might take through a given system, perhaps a network of buoy routes that would be traveled by police/military allowing safer (less chance of piracy) travel from extreme point to point in systems - beyond X range, a player would be on his/her own.
Apologies in advance for WOT
It's always tough to make a call on what tech will or won't work at some abstract time in the future, all that can be done is try to make some educated guesses.
In terms of the latest cryo methods, to stop the bursting of cells required that the medium remain flexible and tough while still maintaining a matrix of structure, so who knows what can (or will) be possible in future.
Perhaps thawing crew to some reasonable cognitive ability will take as long as 3 minute popcorn? ;)
I think your solution to do a bit of handwavium on this issue using some G force deflector tech may nullify the problem well enough to satisfy the less hardcore audience.
But it begs a few questions.
Does this take the lid off acceleration limits in that anything goes?
Also what will be the credible gravity devising means for non rotating spacestations?
Should the gravity plating concept of trekdom be more fully adopted? (as in zero acceleration required to create gravity of one G)
...And by that extension, are wheel spacestations relegated to the bin of low techdom or will they simply represent a low cost more energy efficient means of producing habitable G's?
Insofar as converting all ships to tail sitters, I think that is probably a bit of overkill since ships should have different roles and capabilities.
However, having said that, I would definitely like to see more tail sitters as they do seem more apropos for high G worlds and ultra heavy cargo lifts.
Is it the journey, or the destination?
The question will always be: What makes a game enjoyable or challenging for the majority, while still balancing accessibility for new and less experienced players.
Sometimes it may hang on the ability of a game to represent an environment realistically enough to suspend disbelief (what intrigued me initially about Elite & Frontier's (AKA 2001) rotating wheel stations) and a more realistic depiction of gravity bodies, zero g environment and inertia in a game framework.
That was easily enough hook for me to take the plunge into the game's complexities, others may have different reasons.
Presently a lot of the manual piloting tasks are now easily enough done by autopilots (and now hired crew) while still allowing the hardcore audience complete freedom to experience the thrill (and occasional terror) of manual piloting modes.
I would also prefer (as a game difficulty setting) the flexibility for more manual docking latitude inside the spacestations rather than be grabbed by some tractor beam prior to crossing the threshold and automatically being plopped into a docking bay.(but that's just me)
Since lately their seems to be an emphasis on trek terminology ;)
Best of Both Worlds?
In a similar way I think a well though out solution to the G force conundrum, might allow both ideas to co-exist in game.
Having all civ tech levels have access to such 'G force deflector' technology on board ships could also be a credibility stretch.
I can also see how some might relish the prospect of having to deliver a 'carton of eggs' type cargo, labeled 'Handle with G Care' to a destination where time is of less importance than a safe transport and delivery that would result in premium profits.
(such missions could be made unavailable or less profitable for those with 'G force deflector' tech on their ships.)
Sometimes a problem and it's solution may add unanticipated richness to a gameverse.
Adding or removing such 'G force deflector' tech could lay in the domain of a shipyard upgrade/downgrade. (by default installed on all starter ships)
The ability for a civ to have this tech or not, open's up the opportunities for more contrasting tech levels or pre- warp civilizations with limited space travel capability.
If a ship is not equipped with a G force deflector, the player would then have to monitor acceleration factors to keep the ship acceleration at tolerable levels and durations for any passengers, crew & cargo to survive. This would require a G force readout on the HUD and a g rating limit for any crew/cargo as well as related G suit tech upgrades.
Since all players with the G force deflector installed would be able to carry all cargo without concerns for acceleration on crew or passenger/cargo safety, those players would not see any change from present game play.
Such devices might come in two flavors, 'Advanced' impervious to damage & 'Basic' may fail if damaged. When damaged, any existing acceleration ends, the G force meter pops up and the player would have to respond to the emergency, monitoring G's accordingly.
As a shipyard upgrade/downgrade, the door could be left open for a more advanced/challenging mode of potential realism and gameplay.
On the issue of common routes that ships might take through a given system, perhaps a network of buoy routes that would be traveled by police/military allowing safer (less chance of piracy) travel from extreme point to point in systems - beyond X range, a player would be on his/her own.
Re: G-force Meter
First of all, this isn't a waste of time any more than is any other hobby. :)
Looking at our technological progress over the past 2 centuries, I don't think we can even make an educated guess about what would be realistic tech in the year 3200. I personally doubt that humans will even exist in our present form. This game is a fantasy, but it needs to seem plausible. I'm trying to create justification for Pioneer to retain a similar spirit and mechanics to Frontier.
Yes, a G force deflector would allow a ship to accelerate as fast as its engines allow, as it does now.
There would be no gravity devising means for non-rotating spacestations because they're not accelerating.
In a realistic scenario most ships would accelerate at 1G because passengers and crew wouldn't be able to handle much more for days or weeks of travel. Frontier solved the problem by putting you in an extremely comfy chair. lol
The idea that a G force deflector, if mentioned at all, would need to be purchased and would be subject to damage is an interesting one.
I don't see how we could have a 'pre-warp' civilization unless we introduced aliens. How would they have gotten there? It reminds me of the meme of the sublight colony ship that arrives at its destination and is greeted by the colonists who arrived before them because FTL was invented after they left.
My thought on the commom routes idea, which is a bit off-topic but whatever :) is to add a plane of the ecliptic seed to the systems. Then lines from the inhabited systems that are in range could be calculated giving likely areas for arriving ships to materialize which would be patrolled by police and/or pirates depending on the system.
Your ideas are quite interesting. Put them all in and add all the complexity of Orbiter and I'd still play and enjoy the hell out of it! :D
Looking at our technological progress over the past 2 centuries, I don't think we can even make an educated guess about what would be realistic tech in the year 3200. I personally doubt that humans will even exist in our present form. This game is a fantasy, but it needs to seem plausible. I'm trying to create justification for Pioneer to retain a similar spirit and mechanics to Frontier.
Yes, a G force deflector would allow a ship to accelerate as fast as its engines allow, as it does now.
There would be no gravity devising means for non-rotating spacestations because they're not accelerating.
In a realistic scenario most ships would accelerate at 1G because passengers and crew wouldn't be able to handle much more for days or weeks of travel. Frontier solved the problem by putting you in an extremely comfy chair. lol
The idea that a G force deflector, if mentioned at all, would need to be purchased and would be subject to damage is an interesting one.
I don't see how we could have a 'pre-warp' civilization unless we introduced aliens. How would they have gotten there? It reminds me of the meme of the sublight colony ship that arrives at its destination and is greeted by the colonists who arrived before them because FTL was invented after they left.
My thought on the commom routes idea, which is a bit off-topic but whatever :) is to add a plane of the ecliptic seed to the systems. Then lines from the inhabited systems that are in range could be calculated giving likely areas for arriving ships to materialize which would be patrolled by police and/or pirates depending on the system.
Your ideas are quite interesting. Put them all in and add all the complexity of Orbiter and I'd still play and enjoy the hell out of it! :D
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baobobafet
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:01 pm
Re: G-force Meter
I've often wondered similarly - What percent of us will be synthetic? Just 3D print the rest of my body for whatever the apropos G upon arrival please ;)Marcel » "I personally doubt that humans will even exist in our present form."
On the side issue of non rotating bases, parts of any static base (asteroid base?) could have small rotating
habitat sections.
Alternately an orbital platform could hang low enough in orbit (metaphorically on rails so orbit would never
decay) to produce microgravities, perhaps as much as 1G near some of the larger worlds.
This could allow ships the ability to land on such platforms once they matched it's orbital velocity. Perhaps a low equatorial orbit or one similar to the International Space Station at it's inclination of 51.6397 degrees.
The platforms could offer refuel opportunities (especially for heavy lift ships that may need to burn a lot of fuel to reach orbit with max cargo) and may allow only limited cargo deliveries. These would not need to be full fledged stations but more like a way station with the perk of potentially beautiful views of the world below. (Although some could certainly be more dramitic full featured orbital cities)
I think one orbiting low over Earth would be spectacular since Earth viewed from Gates Spaceport is really
too small to appreciate fully.
..Or how about this for backstory ;)Marcel »"It reminds me of the meme of the sublight colony ship that arrives at its destination and is
greeted by the colonists who arrived before them because FTL was invented after they left."
A fleet of pre FTL colony ships - who after slingshoting past massive black hole find themselves hopelessly lost with diminishing resources. They happen upon a few habitable worlds, creating a few sparse colonies.
Consequently their tech evolution becomes stunted never allowing them to achieve FTL parity.
Over the course of time they become secretive isolationists, maintaining less technological priorities and become for all intensive purposes, alienated, often overlooked and undiscovered.
?
Re: G-force Meter
Pardon me for being nitpicky again :) (Being a teacher makes you probe to it I' affraid :D), but this doesn't work that way unfortunatelly. The people on ISS are experiencing almost the same pull of gravity as if they were standing on Earth. To be in orbit, is to fall constantly, and they are falling the same rate as the station, that's why they are floating around, not because of the distance.Alternately an orbital platform could hang low enough in orbit (metaphorically on rails so orbit would never
decay) to produce microgravities, perhaps as much as 1G near some of the larger worlds.
Maybe if the station's orbital speed is zero, an it's thrusting downwards, countering the pull, then there would be gravity, but I'm not sure if it's even posibble, even if we ignore the propellant problem.
Re: G-force Meter
Much has been said about this, it might be useful to look at here, the last great discussion.
https://github.com/pioneerspacesim/pioneer/pull/1588
https://github.com/pioneerspacesim/pioneer/pull/1588
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baobobafet
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:01 pm
Re: G-force Meter
Thanks guys, I will look over the previous discussion on this - It would be quite cool to pull off - if possible.nozmajner "Maybe if the station's orbital speed is zero, an it's thrusting downwards, countering the pull, then there would be gravity, but I'm not sure if it's even posibble, even if we ignore the propellant problem."
In regards to prior discussion,
The Original 'Pioneers'?
To flesh this backstory out slightly more;
The non FTL colony ships would have originally been sent towards the blackhole to benefit from it's ability
to accelerate their ships to FTL + speeds. Unfortunately a miscalculation in the attempt scatters all the
colony ships to vastly differing sectors of the galaxy.
Such colonies, when/if they are discovered, should probably have some rare items and minerals with which to
trade.
Benedictine, Absinthe & Rare brandies
Exotic Foods and drugs
Arts & Music?
As in all cases there should of course be exceptions to the rule in that some of the more secretive elements of these
societies have developed some surprising technical advances.
More on Grav deflectors
Some possible reasons to not use grav deflectors for transporting certain goods.
Degrades taste/effectiveness of foods/drugs liquors due to deflector's peculiar radiation output.
In some cases, certain cargo may even become volatile and dangerous if transported using G deflector tech.
This makes transporting some items much more valuable and desirable when delivered without the use of the G
force deflector technology.
In the case of liquors and some foods/drugs, this could reward the player with premium profit margins.
This could be especially true for extremely rare Benedictine and Absinthe from such non FTL colonies, which
could fetch huge profits when transported to more traditional markets.
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baobobafet
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:01 pm
Re: G-force Meter
Alternate possibility for a high alt landing platform
Like Bucky's Cloud Nine, no need to be complex to be beautiful.
Basic structure could be a simple dome with bottom platform.
In the center of the platform could be a donut hole access port for ships to enter/exit the domes interior.
If the dome is given the appearance of a shield that always remains visible, that might credibly represent the city's heat retaining membrane and dome surface.
Since it would be transparent, a few buildings, control tower, landing pad(s) and storage tanks could be situated around the donut hole, creating the appearance of some internal infrastructure.
Further details like antenna's, tanks and perhaps some positional thrusters could be added under the platform, but would be considered cosmetic to the overall concept.
Some more complex but cool screenies http://io9.com/dreamlike-concept-images ... -543046948
http://www.lawoftheair.com/
Like Bucky's Cloud Nine, no need to be complex to be beautiful.
Basic structure could be a simple dome with bottom platform.
In the center of the platform could be a donut hole access port for ships to enter/exit the domes interior.
If the dome is given the appearance of a shield that always remains visible, that might credibly represent the city's heat retaining membrane and dome surface.
Since it would be transparent, a few buildings, control tower, landing pad(s) and storage tanks could be situated around the donut hole, creating the appearance of some internal infrastructure.
Further details like antenna's, tanks and perhaps some positional thrusters could be added under the platform, but would be considered cosmetic to the overall concept.
Some more complex but cool screenies http://io9.com/dreamlike-concept-images ... -543046948
http://www.lawoftheair.com/