Art Style Guide for Pioneer - brainstorming

[bszlrd]

@TheBob:

So all in all, I don't think that life support is really a design consideration for this setting.

Exclusion is a design choice too, so... :) It's more of a volume question anyway, so yeah, it's not that important, but I think it's worth talking about it a bit.

@NeuralKernel

The Character is the ship, not the primate inside... why not go Brain in a Jar, Upload or AI?

Name obliges? :)
It's quite an interesting question with very interesting consequences. It would emphasize the Ship is the Character point quite a bit, and this could be exciting. Also would provide a quite strong argument about every stray future feature request about planet walking feature. :D
But really. I think there isn't any game where the pilot is a brain in a jar/upload. And the question is worth exploring.
I once read a short story about this topic, where certain special children were selected at a very young age, and they got built in a special vat in the center of the ship, and served as a not-so-artifical intelligence, or hearth of the ship if you like. Basically they became the ship. These ships weren't really autonomous, but had at least a pilot assigned to them. The bond between ship and pilot was very strong, and in this story, the little girl, who was the ship lost her pilot in a rescue mission, and fled. She discovered that there's a loose society of ships who lost their pilots. (Unfortunately I can't remember the title or author. I thought it's a Simak story, but I was unable to find it in his bibliography.)
Even the player could be a similar kind of ship who lost it's pilot, and basically became free. And if usually the ships are not operated autonomously, then we won't need to adjust the design of most ships too much. I'm thinking about cockpit and things like that.
They could be some kind of cybernetic artificial brain, and a human mind could be uploaded onto it with a very complex and expensive method. Complex, so it's not a too common thing. This artificial brain and it's supporting things should be large enough to prohibit robotic bodies of human size though.
Maybe not all ships have uploaded minds, and the artificial ones intelligence isn't too developed, but it can control a spacecraft's functions. Somewhere at a level of a dog for example, so it can only communicate on a basic level. Maybe there were more elaborate and intelligent ones in the past, but after an equal rights conflict, no one makes those now, or if they do, then they basically have something like human rights in most parts of the galaxy. And it could provide some mood changes, when the player explores parts of space where people don't like this kind of living ship. And that could be an incentive to hire crew to mask the fact that the ship is a living thing. Maybe even contractors would refuse to deal with the player if there's no crew on the ship.
And if this mind core isn't too hardly bonded with the ship, then it could be moved between ships, so the ship buying would be the same really.

But maybe this would be too big impact on the world, and would kill a lot of narration possibilities the player could put in the game for him/herself.
I really like this idea, and the consequences it could bring to the game world from a narrative point. And I can't really remember any space game that explored this. Right now I can't name any other game about this, but I'm sure there are some.

[NeuralKernel]

eclipsephase.com
:D
Even without the extremes of carving a brain out of an ape and wiring it to a ship, the demands of long term spaceflight could still invovle some rather extreme medical interventions. I mentioned the idea of a free floating `2m spherical cockpit module in the main forum (ship components thread, I think) a while back, able to rotate to orient the pilot in whatever direction is best for absorbing acceleration. For convenient short term operation a seat and controls like any other piece of complex heavy machinery makes the most sense... but on a flight to Neptune you'd arrive dead or crazy.
What about a setup like the "Real World" from the Matrix? A fluid filled spherical pod with wires and tubes hooked up all over to provide a Direct Brain Interface and Life Support. It's an extreme medical procedure to install someone in a Pod, and another extreme medical procedure to safely remove them. It's all perfectly safe when done by competant doctors in proper facilities but is still not something to be taken lightly.
The Pod could be swapped between ships in any reasonably equipped shipyard in a matter of minutes and the encased pilot would be able to interact with the outside world through "The Net" either with electronic communication or by renting a Robotic Avatar...
There's lots of wiggle room between "Primate in a Can" and "Sapient Computer Program".

[Luomu]

But maybe this would be too big impact on the world, and would kill a lot of narration possibilities the player could put in the game for him/herself.

I'm quite sure we are not going to do it for this game. It's harder to identify with and raises many questions (where's the feeling of danger if you can just upload a copy of yourself?), which can easily lead to inconsistencies in a world. Same reason I don't want true AI: why would any ship have a human crew, if a machine can do the job better.

I really like this idea, and the consequences it could bring to the game world from a narrative point. And I can't really remember any space game that explored this. Right now I can't name any other game about this, but I'm sure there are some.

I remember an old-ass strategy game "Iron Seed" where your crew were all uploaded. As a game mechanic they would eventually corrupt/go insane and you had to take and restore back-ups.

[bszlrd]

There's lots of wiggle room between "Primate in a Can" and "Sapient Computer Program".

Fortunately. And that wiggle room has some quite interesting questions.
Once I was thinking about something similar to the neural interface, but without a capsule filled with liquid. But the pilot would be so wired to the ship that it becomes part of their body, so if the ship would got damaged or destroyed, or even unplugging to abruptly, that would be quite traumatic for the pilot (even more than a "simple" ejection form a destroyed ship in some kid of space suit or escape capsule.) Like if they suffered multiple amputations. They were able to enter/exit the ship easily (something like that plug in the matrix, when they were "surfing"), but they would feel very strange and lost when unplugged. And unplugging would even need time and proper preparation to avoid any serious trauma.
But the ship becomes their body basically, so maneuvering becomes as natural as walking, and ship functions work like a vegetative system. Sensors become senses and such. So the brain needs quite a preparation before the pilot becomes suitable for this kind of ship operation. New vegetative and instinctive routines and sensory inputs are needed.

It's harder to identify with and raises many questions (where's the feeling of danger if you can just upload a copy of yourself?), which can easily lead to inconsistencies in a world.

In that universe I was thinking about that time (quite long ago), mind upload was possible, but needed a quite large and energy hungry system, and the transfer was a very delicate and hard process, and during the operation, the brain is destroyed, so no turning back. No mind copying and no body switching at will.

I'm looking in this eclipse phase game for sure, it seems interesting.

@Luomu:

Same reason I don't want true AI: why would any ship have a human crew, if a machine can do the job better.

AI is quite foreign to me too. Maybe some kind of plateau in Moore's Law, so there isn't enough computing power for a self-conscious AI.)

Still quite far from graphics development, but I think it's still important to talk trough this.

[Tichy]

In that universe I was thinking about that time (quite long ago), mind upload was possible, but needed a quite large and energy hungry system, and the transfer was a very delicate and hard process, and during the operation, the brain is destroyed, so no turning back. No mind copying and no body switching at will.

This argument is, philosophically speaking, quite complex. Just think about that: when you copy your mind into some other support (assuming we can do that), the mind in that support is no longer you. It is, in fact, a copy. Your original self, will still be in its place. A transfer would mean copy+destroy the original. Who would want to do that? From the point of view of the copy, there will be a continuity of memories and experiences. The copy could think she is the original transfered into a new support. From the point of view of other people, there could be the same illusion, but the original individual, will only view a clone of itself (if copied) or will die (if transfered).
There are lots of similar thought experiments in philosophy of mind. This situation is quite similar to the teletrasportation thought experiment and to a story by philosopher Daniel Dennett, called "Where am I?". I think you can find both online, if you want to read them. Otherwise, search for a book called "The Mind's I". It's a collection of short stories, commented by Douglas Hofstadter (Goedel, Escher, Bach... I am a strange loop) and Daniel Dennett.

Anyway, I think that we should consider life support. Unless it ends up creating too many complications with time compression.
A ship should have enough room for living. Otherwise, if we consider the pilot connected through some neural interface and fed through infusions or similar, we might not even worry too much about the available living space.

[Luomu]

Let's talk about crew a bit. As you know, in the game the player can hire crew, and even give them some orders. I don't know how far we can take the crew interaction, but I'd like to promote this aspect of the game more. The player should have crew more often than not (I like to think of it as a fireflyesque setting, minus the TV drama). Artwise, that means most of the playable ships should be medium sized. Single-person craft are a bit too maneuverable, and don't really have the range and cargo space for varied gameplay.

[bszlrd]

@Tichy:
Partially that's why I think it's an interesting thing for a game (and I will check those books for sure). But maybe it's harder to immerse yourself this way.
Life support is mostly a volume/size question mostly.

@Luomu:
I agree about medium ships. They are more sensible for this kind of game-play, and crew interaction could be quite interesting. Especially if ship systems accumulate wear, dropping performance, and your crew could maintain them with spare parts.
Are more RPG-like features, like bonuses in some fields, if a crew member has a certain skill? Like a good higgler could find better prices on the market, or a good mechanic can find better ship and part deals, and he can spot if the ship has too much wear, so it's not worth buying it. (if there will be wear and such in the game sometime..., lua equipment is for these kind of things too, right?).
I don't know how this can be indicated in-game (or should be), but it should be present at least on the ship description level or somewhere, that long travel in a small one-person ship is quite taxing for the pilot. Boredom, madness ad such, if he doesn't have proper training.

Also a crew can provide some narrative possibilities for the player to fill with own imagination.
I'm rereading the project rho article (I'm constantly checking that site for updates for years now :) ), to see, how much we can stretch performances and storage. Anyway I think we shouldn't obsess over it. We should aim for a volume and size which seems to be able to accommodate the needed equipment and storage.

I've already made a very simple blend file for planning ship size and performance. Basic color coded objects for each part, so you can check the volumes. It mostly needs proper research to find proper volumes and densities for each part type, and the requirements per crew member or ship size for example. It's very vague, and will be only good for basic eyeballing and sketching, but it will provide a good base, so we can avoid big inconsistencies in the future. It's intended to be a very vague planning tool.
I've already made some research about aircraft engines. I've collected stats like mass and thrust to see how those relate. For now it's a quite linear plot where increasing mass equates increasing thrust. I want to include volume data to it, to see how density relates to thrust. My aim is to get a feel of these relations and proportions.

Proportions are very important in my opinion. If it's consistent, then we have an inherent indication of scale and also a strong overall consistency.

[bszlrd]

Also a good question NeuralKernel brought up: Shields. What are those? Is there any quasi-technical or quasi-scientific writing/idea how they work? Or it's just there as a trope and without any further explanation?
I'm quite unsure about them, because there are a few implications to them, like that super efficient cooling shield mentioned before. And they can quite overpower ships and overstretch combat easily (there was a mod for Freelancer where the enemy's shields were so strong, you had to chase them for at least 10-20 minutes each, before they dropped their shields, and it wasn't really fun.) It might be more interesting if they are strong, but if you get past them , then the ship could be destroyed in as few as two to four hits, ore a bit more for a larger one. And shield regeneration should be slow at first this way in my opinion.

Once I was thinking about a more elaborate sci-fi shield system with two layers. One was a more bubble like at a distance from the hull which absorbs most of the kinetic energy, and it's not fixed, but can be kicked closer to the hull. The second layer was encapsulating the hull more closer and following it's shape mostly, and was for absorbing the remaining kinetic energy. There could be additional narrower tracking aux shields over the out-most layer, protecting from specific target (I'm not sure if I came up with the tracking shield idea before I've heard about I-war :) )

Or ditch shields altogether, so the player should use hull repair if regenerating hull is needed.
(I think I-war got this mostly right with it's limited tracking shields and regenerating hull. The regeneration was a bit fast in my opinion though.)
But a shield generator could be another good detail with function for the ships if there are plans for equipment dependent details for ships.
Of course this is mostly a visual/volume question, but I'm curious about your thoughts about shields generally.

Another combat related question, about weapons. I saw that there's a way planned for externally attached weapons in the future and limited tracking/auto-aim too. How elaborate these should be visually? Is there a need for external weapons with tracking hard-points? Or they should be hidden in the hull altogether? Or maybe both? Combat ships could have tracking hard-point, and others could have weapons, but no way for tracking hard-point (Pumpkinseed has holes for 4 cannon hidden in the hull, but not much possibility for tracking really, for example). I think, limited tracking could work with weapons inside the hull, but there should be enough space for the weapon's movement, and a proper nozzle.
How common turrets will be? Are there any plans including other types of weapons? Like returning of the laser beam (visible beam could be only a projection by the hud, own always, the enemy's only estimated or when it's detected somehow).

Is there any preference for missiles? Right now I prefer them hidden in the hull or in some kind of enclosed launcher pod for protection, instead of hanging them from the ship plainly.
Like this:

[bszlrd]

And just to keep this topic alive, I'm working on some groundwork for an article (let's call it "Anatomy of a spaceship") about how a ship's structure would look like, to aid ship stat planning and calculation. And as a base for visual development. These are the basic parts that should be incorporated in future ship designs in my opinion. Weapons excluded, and most other equipment can go in the cargo hold.

And it seems I've underestimated the Mola's capacities a bit.


There are some spare space for crew compartment, and for the front docking clamp (right under the Instrumentations block) and for the clearance for the ramp under the clamp. Also it might be better to have a smaller fuel tank and extend the cargo hold in this ship, and then the player can store extra fuel in the hold if needed. The power plant is between the four main engines, behind the fuel tank, depicted as a thick 2*2*1m torus, but it's barely visible here.
Also, crew compartment might be too small, and should be extended backwards at the expense of cargo space.
The engines are quite small (short), since they are not very powerful.

[Zordey]

nozmajner: what did you use to make that picture? I had thought of doing a basic blueprint for the Deneb but that looks much nicer.

The crew cabin probably needs to be a bit bigger. If the notion is that Pioneer is not using the "Stardreamer" seat like Frontier then there probably needs to be room for a common area / kitchen and for crew bunks.